Curse

aaero · Jul 06, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

The thread title pretty much says it all. I'm interested in developing play skill and prepping for more advanced PvP by playing a flexible, balanced build. At the same time, I haven't played much and my teammates have played significantly less, so I'm trying to keep things fairly simple.

The build is here (you don't need to read the fairly extensive comments, it's just general strategy):
http://gwshack.us/2e48

I could try and answer all the questions that might come up in advance, but I'll just keep it simple for now and ask for advice/criticism (you're also welcome to applaud my phenomenal build-creation skills).

Thanks a lot for any help or suggestions!

-----

Also, since I'm here, a quick thank you to DivineShadows from the lurker community. Your posts and guides in the Team Arena forum are very helpful!

Shaz · Jul 06, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Seem ok for a balanced build, 2 melee, 1 blind bot and a monk. But I would run Frenzy + Rush on the Dragon Slash instead of Enraging Charge + Flail for better mobility. As a dragon slash you don't need those few extra adrenaline like a hammer warrior do, and once dragon slash is charged you wont need enraging charge. And I would run 16 sword instead of 14 since DP is not a big problem in Arena as it is in GvG, because once you die a few times its game over anyway.

aaero · Jul 06, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Isn't it tough to get Dragon Slash online though? I'll make the suggestion either way, I don't have much experience playing frontline.

Sup. Swordsmanship sounds like good advice. Thanks!

Shaz · Jul 06, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Well it does required 10 adrenalines, but if you manage frenzy well, it can charge up pretty fast. If you think you don't need that interrupt, you can even swap dblow out for protector's strike like most Dragon Slasher use, it will charge up even quicker and more damage. And once it's charged, it will keep itself up, and dish out good DPS. I missed playing a Dragon Slash

, haven't play one in a long time, might play it later lol.

ideologue · Jul 06, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

The build I saw was SP sin, E/Mo b-surge, monk, and Dragon slash war. So I'll make my comment based on that.
Sin is fine.

The E/Mo is using many skills that cost a lot of energy. Glyph of Lesser Energy is highly recommended. Since the monk has condition removal, E/Mo can drop mending touch for glyph of lesser energy.

Sword Warrior: I personally like crip slash better. Sun and moon without conjure is mediocre. Bull strike's knockdown might be more beneficial. And of course, frenzy and rush instead of flail and enraged.

Monk: not enough prots against spikes or pressure. ZB is already a big heal, so you can drop gift for spirit bond. If you really like the heal from gift that much, drop SoA. You already have an off-monk draw, plus the fact that there are very few enchantments, mend condition is better, in this case, than dismiss. Use return instead of death retreat >.< (don't forget a lengthen cripple martial weapon)

(Use minor runes on the war

)

moko · Jul 06, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ideologue

The build I saw was SP sin, E/Mo b-surge, monk, and Dragon slash war. So I'll make my comment based on that.
Sin is fine.

The E/Mo is using many skills that cost a lot of energy. Glyph of Lesser Energy is highly recommended. Since the monk has condition removal, E/Mo can drop mending touch for glyph of lesser energy.

Sword Warrior: I personally like crip slash better. Sun and moon without conjure is mediocre. Bull strike's knockdown might be more beneficial. And of course, frenzy and rush instead of flail and enraged.

Monk: not enough prots against spikes or pressure. ZB is already a big heal, so you can drop gift for spirit bond. If you really like the heal from gift that much, drop SoA. You already have an off-monk draw, plus the fact that there are very few enchantments, mend condition is better, in this case, than dismiss. Use return instead of death retreat >.< (don't forget a lengthen cripple martial weapon)

(Use minor runes on the war

)

what he says is true.

i'll add stuff:

enervating charge (lol it's bad) for ward against foes. foes is such an amazing skill!

monk: all minors, less shadow, more divine and prot, don't go with heal, l2use ZB.

conjure dragonslash DPS can be the nastiest thing ever, lol try it.

assassin: i don't like that gimmick SP, it's kinda weak, gogo moebious, has more utility, but the bar itself is fine. ^^

a fine build, nothing i'd use but basic enough.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 06, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Moebius sin FTW. Run like, leaping mantis, exhausting, moebius, death blossom, impale, dash/siphon speed, ddagger/siphon speed, res.

aaero · Jul 06, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've made the following changes:

BSurge E/Mo:
Dropped Mending Touch for Glyph of Energy

Dragon Slash W/A:
Dropped Enraged Charge for Rush
Dropped Flurry for Frenzy
Kept Minor Runes

Shadow Prison A/W:
Unchanged

ZB Monk/A:
Dropped Gift of Health for Spirit Bond
Dropped Dismiss Condition for Mend Condition
Dropped Death's Retreat for Return

Quote:

Originally Posted by ideologue

Use return instead of death retreat >.< (don't forget a lengthen cripple martial weapon)

I play the monk, and I've been using Return (with lengthen cripple). I haven't really had spectacular results so far (I warp and then die anyway). I'll just try using it earlier, I suppose. Your other suggestions match up with my experiences. Gift of Health isn't used very often, and I don't see the health gain from Dismiss all that often. I haven't had a chance to play with off-monk condition removal so the draw should be really helpful and might let Mend Condition work really well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

enervating charge (lol it's bad) for ward against foes. foes is such an amazing skill!

Yeah I don't know if Enervating Charge is very good...but I don't know if I want to have the Ele spec into Earth. I do like Ward Against Foes - we'll probably try both. I don't know if the weakness from e charge is really that noticeable (and if not, why not just get lightning strike/bolt).

Quote:

Moebius sin FTW.

Maybe we'll try a Moebius build like you suggested (quite similar to this one http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/W_Moebius_Impaler) but going to stick with Shadow Prison for now. I don't think it would be classified as a gimmick build, either.

person a · Jul 07, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaero

I haven't had a chance to play with off-monk condition removal so the draw should be really helpful and might let Mend Ailment work really well.

i think he meant mend contion, not mend ailment. looks like a good starting build, good luck.

aaero · Jul 07, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Yeah - just a typo (I had it right in the changelog!). I'll post results once I've played it for a bit (along with any changes).

Master Ketsu · Jul 07, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Putting convert and draw on the blind bot with mend on the monk is a decent and balanced combo, but i would try a bit more variation on the melee.

For one, SP/Tiger combo is overrated. Since TA is more of a pressure arena it may be better to experiement with some pressure builds instead ( try some mobius ).

Also, try a hammer KD warrior instead of the dragon slash warrior. well timed KD's can easily win a TA match.

|Readem| · Jul 07, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Only need one front-liner. BB Wars and SS sins are better for TA imo. Monk go ZB/RoF/DC/SoA/SoD/DH/Return/Optional. Optional ca be MT/SB/PS. Spirit Spam Wonderlord with draw/cnvert. Hex Pressure Nec with Wards. Go RM/FH/PB/GoLE/PoF/RH/Optional can be WaM/WaF/or Suffering. No RC so don't pack RF.

skillsbas8 · Jul 09, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

my advice on original build-
Replace the surger with a resto/channeling rit. Go /mo secondary on rit for convert. Pretty standard setup with warmongers, essence strike, weapon of warding (or weapon of shadow), etc...
Make the warrior /e and add a conjure instead of distracting. Rit can place warmongers for interrupts, and the S&M slash is a pretty mean spike with conjure.
Give assasin a standard moebius bar, as the build seems to be more pressure oriented.

gave advice trying to keep same build idea in mind, but i'm sure there are better options.

aaero · Jul 13, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I'm a little slow on the response, but I've tried out the build.

The final build is the same build currently at http://gwshack.us/2e48 (War did get conjure for distracting), except the Assassin was completely swapped out for a Moebius assassin.

A quick note on this change: our Assassin absolutely hated it, he felt his damage was drastically reduced without any kind of new utility. It wasn't just that he couldn't spike, it was that his pressure was much worse too - he did less damage over time with hardly any added versatility. This is also largely due to the fact that he thinks Death Blossom is a very poor skill. It did shine when we fought the Zaishen to get some faction, I suppose.

Overall, the build felt very versatile defensively - primarily due to the two casters. I felt like defensively we were fairly strong, but more importantly ready for a variety of teams. Convert Hexes and Draw Conditions played a big part in this. It seems to me that Protective Spirit would have been a better choice than Spirit Bond - the idea behind bond is nice, but paying 10 for what comes out to be a mediocre heal is taxing. We played a couple teams with decent spikes too - some kind of ritualist/ranger team with nightmare weapon and dual shot just humiliated us, spiking us down one at a time while our melee couldn't deal any damage whatsoever.

Our offense lacked a bit of the versatility our defense had - basically, it was just two melee guys trying to hit stuff until it died. Unfortunately, since most of my teammates are really just starting out, the professions are fairly locked in (due to skill unlocks). Given the chance, I'd take out the WAR or the A for a necro/something to add variety to our damage sources.

We won probably 15-25% of the time. The reason I like the build is that I think if we were more skilled players, we could have won 75% (or more) of the time. I prefer builds that require skilled play, even if my team lacks the required skill

.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone.

moko · Jul 13, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

maybe his moebius bar was just utter crap?

it's such an amazing pressure if you know how to use it (and good melees can be hard to find, even in TA lol).

so yeah..blame it on your melees, not the build.

i always had a problem running a single nec in a non hex build because normal hex removal owns you while you can outhex it in standart hexbuilds, so i don't fit hexes in balanced builds.

[skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Wild Blow[/skill][skill]Dash[/skill]Rez

you could spike with this Moebius Setup really easily, i don't see a problem tbh.

blackbane · Jul 14, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

my advice on original build-
Replace the surger with a resto/channeling rit. Go /mo secondary on rit for convert. Pretty standard setup with warmongers, essence strike, weapon of warding (or weapon of shadow), etc...
Make the warrior /e and add a conjure instead of distracting. Rit can place warmongers for interrupts, and the S&M slash is a pretty mean spike with conjure.
Give assasin a standard moebius bar, as the build seems to be more pressure oriented.

gave advice trying to keep same build idea in mind, but i'm sure there are better options.

Maybe you didn't read correctly, he said balanced build, running a warmongers rit is not balanced.

pah01 · Jul 14, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

first thing is run 14 sword on the sword warrior. Dont ever run a dragon slasher w/o it. It costs you at least a strike of adrenaline and base damage on top. remember 8 10 12 distribution. Strength is fine at 8+1.

Though i would be inclined to run a hammer in that build.

try a devastating with enraging charge and heavy blow, multiple kds means you can disrupt w/o a mesmer and with your sin alongside its just a matter of kd chaining the monk and killing him while the sin kills somebody else.

Joe

careofapathy · Jul 15, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

It's a very offense-oriented build with only the minimum required amount of support. You can have a huge amount of offense if they don't have anti-melee shutdown. Most teams have pretty decent anti-melee in TA.

A few things I thought about:

- How well you do against daze, covered with poison on ele, meaning no blind, meaning something is beating on your monk, aka does he have enough time to Mend Condition twice against a good team?
- How well you do against enchantment heavy teams like Shield of Regeneration (no enchantment removals)
- Hex heavy teams, Convert + Viel may not be enough and Signet of Humility on ZB means it's over. Faint + PBond will probably always be on warrior.
- BSurge still effective against Sin combos, unless the Drawbot isn't doing anything else.
- No interrupts may be a problem.
- Enchantment stripping, Corrupt could take out Air Attune, Conjure, monk enchants, leaving your ele with weaker energy management, wasted attribute points for warrior, and no prot on your monk.

skillsbas8 · Jul 15, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbane

Maybe you didn't read correctly, he said balanced build, running a warmongers rit is not balanced.

i understood perfectly correct. Having a rit doesn't make something not balanced, lol.

aaero · Jul 17, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Just as an update, we ran a slightly different build this week - mostly because a couple players just wanted to switch up the type of build they were playing, not actually because of shortcomings in the build.

Our Assassin switched out to a Reaper's Mark Necro, exactly as listed here:
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/...ee_Necromancer

Our BSurge Elementalist switched out to a Burning Arrow Ranger, mostly as listed here (couldn't finish the build due to unlocks):
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...g_Arrow_Ranger

So the build was a

Reaper's Mark Hex Necro
Burning Arrow Ranger
Dragon Slash Warrior (original build)
ZB Monk (original build)

We did fairly horribly, though I think this build is actually a little stronger than the one listed in the original post. To put it bluntly, we just weren't able to kill anything (maybe because a Dragon Slash Warrior just isn't the right choice here). I have another question for the eager to help forumers here: it's most likely that the build is NOT the problem, right? I spent the majority of the night reassuring my friends that the build was fine and that we just needed to practice.

While I'm at it, if anyone wants to offer some specific strategic advice, I'm very willing to listen. I've read a lot of the old posts here and on guild-hall, so I'm familiar with basic theory, but if anyone has suggestions on how this build could be run - ie, what should each player be doing and focusing on, I'd be happy to hear it.

---

Mokone - Thanks for the Moebius build. I don't think it was the build, I think our Assassin is just in love with Shadow Prison (he also likes to complain). That build does look heavier on damage than the one he was using though, so if we switch it up then I'll have him try it out.

Skillsbas - I think that would be very effective, but for now not really an option. We can't sub a rit into the build.

pah01 - Thanks very much for the suggestions. Turns out our DS War was running 12-10-8. I very much agree that a Hammer Warrior would be a better fit for the original build if said warrior can time their knockdown well.

CareOfApathy - I don't know if the right plan is to prepare for every contingency and have an answer for it. Spreading a build too thin simply leaves it weak, in my experience.